This is why, you know, so I do koan practice.

这就是为，你知道，所以我做公案修行。

Coming up, Henry talks about what koans are, the ancient Zen practice of koans.

接下来，亨利将谈论是公案，即古老的禅宗公案实践。

This struck me as so fundamentally stupid it might actually be wise, like a Zen koan or an early story by John Updike.

我觉得这说法是大蠢特蠢，乃至可是明智之言，就像禅宗的偈语，或者约翰·厄普代克早期的小说。

And we talk about what koans are.

我们讨论是公案。

And every koan, you know, if you've ever read " Godel, Escher, Bach" he's got a whole chapter on koans.

而且每一个公案， 你知道，如果你读过《德尔、艾舍尔、巴赫》， 他有一整章都在讲公案。

Can you talk a little bit about what koans are and how it would fit into the category of absorption?

你讲一下公案是，以及它如何归类到吸收这一类别中吗？

Actually, the whole koan is, you know the sound of two hands clapping?

实际上，整个公案是这样的：你知道两只手拍击的声音吗？

And then ultimately when I got into practice with Zen, I was given a koan and sat with it for years and it didn't trigger anything.

最终，当我深入禅修实践时，我被授予一个公案， 并与之相伴数年， 却未曾引发任何觉悟。

So I could never tell you, if I told you the answer, I could give you a koan and tell you the answer, you'd be like, what?

所以我永远不会告诉你，如果我告诉你答案，我可以给你一个公案并告诉你答案，你会说，？

So this is a tradition in Zen that it was established, it was a teaching method that was established, like, you know, 1,000 years ago, these book of koans.

所以这是禅宗建立的一个传统，它是一种建立于一千年前的公案书上的教学方法。

Yeah, so the little rider here would be that the primary purpose of koans is found in the fourth in, where it's about catalyzing glimpses of non-duality.

是的，这里的小提示是， 公案的主要目的在于第四个旅馆，在那里，它们旨在催化对非二元性的瞬间领悟。

So in this part of the book on absorption, you talk about koans, which are zen riddles, these imponderable questions like, what's the sound of one hand clapping, et cetera, et cetera.

所以在书中的这一部分关于吸收的内容里，你提到公案， 这些是禅宗的谜题，比如一些难以解答的问题：一只手拍掌的声音是，等等。

And if we don't come back to it, I will refer people to my first, maybe even my second conversation with Henry Schucman on this podcast where we spend probably an hour on koans.

如果我们不再讨论这个问题，我会请大家参考我与亨利·舒曼 (Henry Schucman) 在播客上的第一次、甚至可是第二次对话，我们大概花一个小时讨论公案。

And then there's koans where you just sit with a phrase like, there's one beautiful koan actually where the student asks, what is moment by moment samadhi?

还有公案， 你只需要坐下来思考一个词句，有一个很美的公案， 学生问，是时刻的三摩地？

The first time when I sat, you know, when I did a koan and the guy was like, " Don't tell me the answer, show me the answer, " I was like, what are you talking about?

你知道，第一次我坐下来，当我做一个公案时，那个人说，“不要告诉我答案， 给我看答案” ，我当时就想，你在说？