This is why, you know, so I do koan practice.

这就是为什么，你知道，所以我做行。

Coming up, Henry talks about what koans are, the ancient Zen practice of koans.

接下来，亨利将谈论什么是，即古老的宗践。

This struck me as so fundamentally stupid it might actually be wise, like a Zen koan or an early story by John Updike.

我觉得这说法是大蠢特蠢，乃至可能是明智之言，就像宗的偈语，或者约翰·厄普代克早期的小说。

And we talk about what koans are.

我们讨论了什么是。

And every koan, you know, if you've ever read " Godel, Escher, Bach" he's got a whole chapter on koans.

而且每一个， 你知道，如果你读过《德尔、艾舍尔、巴赫》， 他有一整章都在讲。

Can you talk a little bit about what koans are and how it would fit into the category of absorption?

你能稍微讲一下是什么，以及它如何归类到吸收这一类别中吗？

Actually, the whole koan is, you know the sound of two hands clapping?

际上，整个是这样的：你知道两只手拍击的声音吗？

And then ultimately when I got into practice with Zen, I was given a koan and sat with it for years and it didn't trigger anything.

最终，当我深践时，我被授予了一个， 并与之相伴数年， 却未曾引发任何觉悟。

So I could never tell you, if I told you the answer, I could give you a koan and tell you the answer, you'd be like, what?

所以我永远不会告诉你，如果我告诉你答，我可以给你一个并告诉你答，你会说，什么？

So this is a tradition in Zen that it was established, it was a teaching method that was established, like, you know, 1,000 years ago, these book of koans.

所以这是宗建立的一个传统，它是一种建立于一千年前的书上的教学方法。

Yeah, so the little rider here would be that the primary purpose of koans is found in the fourth in, where it's about catalyzing glimpses of non-duality.

是的，这里的小提示是， 的主要目的在于第四个旅馆，在那里，它们旨在催化对非二元性的瞬间领悟。

So in this part of the book on absorption, you talk about koans, which are zen riddles, these imponderable questions like, what's the sound of one hand clapping, et cetera, et cetera.

所以在书中的这一部分关于吸收的内容里，你提到了， 这些是宗的谜题，比如一些难以解答的问题：一只手拍掌的声音是什么，等等。

And if we don't come back to it, I will refer people to my first, maybe even my second conversation with Henry Schucman on this podcast where we spend probably an hour on koans.

如果我们不再讨论这个问题，我会请大家参考我与亨利·舒曼 (Henry Schucman) 在播客上的第一次、甚至可能是第二次对话，我们大概花了一个小时讨论。

And then there's koans where you just sit with a phrase like, there's one beautiful koan actually where the student asks, what is moment by moment samadhi?

还有， 你只需要坐下来思考一个词句，有一个很美的， 学生问，什么是时刻的三摩地？

The first time when I sat, you know, when I did a koan and the guy was like, " Don't tell me the answer, show me the answer, " I was like, what are you talking about?

你知道，第一次我坐下来，当我做一个时，那个人说，“不要告诉我答， 给我看答” ，我当时就想，你在说什么？